DCHAS-L Archives, May 05 2020 - Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

That's all very true. I'm sure there's lots of other legal ramifications, if you really sit down to contemplate it. The article is mute on the issue of permits. Maybe they got some, maybe they didn't.

I, personally, can't really get mad at them for trying. It would be great if someone near them can take the time to reach out and help them ensure what they are doing is safe for them.

Thank you,

Yaritza Brinker

260.827.5402

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 10:06 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

** External Email **

But my evil mind sees a lot more wrong with that. It's technically against the law. The Fire Department should be upholding the laws even when they disagree with them. At home it is OK to play around like this, but to use an unregistered DIY disinfectant to protect others is against the law.

And since it is not legal, suppose one of the fire fighters or a person working in the fire houses get the virus and claims the reason was that the disinfectant was ineffective. Or they claim the spray caused some other harm to them such as allergy or asthma. Ordinarily, they couldn't sue the employer. But in this case they can sue under Product Liability because the employer is both the user and the manufacturer of this illegal product. Even in Tort Reform Texas that would probably go.

And I would extend the possible actions to people who imitate the Fire Department's product due to that article.

Being competent to "behave" around chemicals still does not give one the right to break the law and invent your own product on site and expose others to it.

Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: Yaritza Brinker <YBrinker**At_Symbol_Here**FELE.COM>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Sent: Tue, May 5, 2020 9:23 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

The Hazmat team in my area has field analysis capabilities for chemicals. It is quite possible the guys in TX do too. If they figured out how to make the stuff, they can likely figure out how to use their field equipment to measure the concentration of their bleach. Also, it's the HAZMAT team. If any firefighter knows how to behave around chemicals, it's that bunch.

This doesn't necessarily take away the concern regarding the general population who might try to imitate them.

Thank you,

Yaritza Brinker

260.827.5402

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> On Behalf Of Monona Rossol
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 2:24 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

** External Email **

John, Clearly that's how they are thinking at Station 11 in Waco, TX. But how about the concentration? It's got to be strong enough as well. How about an SDS? How about EPA registration? And that means demonstrating scientifically that it is both safe to use as directed, and effective for the purpose intended. So the more I think the more I feel a the firefighters should stick to their fire stuff.

We just had a big issue in museums with people using asphyxiant gases and toxic chemicals to mix up their own pesticides to protect museum artifacts. Turns out that's just plain not legal to do without registration. In the museums, the down side is damage to an artifact. But for EMS responding fire fighters, the down side could be sickness or even death.

If anyone out there knows of a reason I'm wrong, sing out.

Monona

-----Original Message-----
From: JOHN L STRAUGHN <0000120dde6ec15c-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Sent: Mon, May 4, 2020 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

Aqueous bleach is a fairly simple thing; a DC current run through salt (NaCl) water is the way to get a sodium hypochlorite - sodium chloride solution, aka bleach. Chlorine element is produced at the oxidizing electrode as electrons are pulled from chloride ions and hydrogen is produced at the reducing electrode from hydrogen ions, from water ( the sodium ions don't react as well, so hydrogen is generated; no smoking around that end of the system!), leaving hydroxide ions in solution. The hydroxide reacts with the chlorine generated, hopefully before chlorine gas leaves, producing hypochlorite, OCl(-), and chloride ions. Now you've got alkaline bleach solution; add vinegar carefully so as to moderate the pH but not too much so as to lose that chlorine. Those firemen are on the right track, but I would add the vinegar last and make sure that the hydrogen is diluted safely.

I'm retired from the U of Wisc safety dept, but my chemical brain is still interested in stuff. Wanna know how dimethylnitrosamine arises from ranitidine? I'm in to that as well.

From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**LISTS.PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 11:20 AM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Chemical Safety headlines (10 articles)

OK, friends, we need to figure out what is going on here, because there are now a flock of "DIY disinffectant" solutions just like there are DIY masks. The sprayers mostly are ionizers which use electrical current to create some ozone in the water and call it "ionized water." While bleach is approved, these homemade salt, vinegar, and ionized water combinations are not. Will this stuff deliver the lipoid damaging punch needed for this virus?

Monona Rossol

WACO FIREFIGHTERS PRODUCING DISINFECTANT SOLUTION TO PROTECT FIRST RESPONDERS FROM COVID-19

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/government/waco-firefighters-producing-disinfectant-solution-to-protect-first-responders-from-covid-19/article_7e30f502-a0c2-5144-a83a-7c82ce9c7efd.html

Tags: us_TX, industrial, discovery, environmental, bleach

A mixture of salt and water with a splash of vinegar and a jolt of electrochemical activation is supplying Waco firefighters with a safe but powerful disinfectant as they work to keep their equipment and quarters free of COVID-19.

Crews at Waco Fire Station No. 11, where the department's hazardous materials unit is housed, have also developed a new spray system for the disinfectant using their air tanks and other common firehouse equipment. Their formula for homemade hypochlorous acid paired with the spray system lets them kill viruses, bacteria and fungus on gear, trucks and high-use firehouse areas in 60 seconds without the need to wipe everything down afterward.

"For lack of a better term, we are the science nerds at Station 11, you know the hazmat crew. Because there is a lot of chemistry that goes into working hazmat calls, we knew we could do something during this time," said Waco fire Lt. Philip Burnett, who works at Station No. 11. "The mixture is basically water, salt and we have to put vinegar in it to lower the pH level to make it neutral, then basically �cook' it by putting electricity to it to make the acid with a kill-rate higher than bleach."

Ralph Stuart, CIH, CCHO

membership**At_Symbol_Here**dchas.org

Membership chair

American Chemical Society

Division of Chemical Health and Safety

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