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Previous by Date: Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Restaurant use of liquid nitrogen for ice cream? Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 at 3:51:43 PM Author: Jeffrey Lewin <jclewin**At_Symbol_Here**MTU.EDU> |
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Thank you, Jeff. That's the part of the problem I could only allude to because I am so unfamiliar with food preparation and cooking -- something I just don't do. But I know there are a lot of sanitation issues that should be addressed.
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Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
Safety Consultant: SAG-AFTRA
181 Thompson St., #23
New York, NY 10012 212-777-0062
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Lewin <jclewin**At_Symbol_Here**MTU.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Wed, Sep 26, 2018 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Restaurant use of liquid nitrogen for ice cream?
The challenge we find with LN ice cream is on the food safety side, not so much on the LN handling side (although it did look like that the glasses the demonstrator in the video was wearing under the face shield appeared to be normal eyeglasses).
It also has made me think twice about forwarding the recent ACS article about safe demonstrations. The opening of the article is valuable, but it also contains this sentence, about halfway down:
"To really wow the audience, you might want to finish off by making a batch of liquid nitrogen ice cream."
In our conversations with the demonstration groups that want to do this we've essentially told them they need temporary food licenses; think making multiple gallon batches for thousands of people.
We sat through a demo where I peppered them with such questions (many they got right, some they had to think about):
Are you using food grade tubs
Are the tubs and utensils being washed, rinsed, and SANITIZED (either by temp or chemical); if using chlorine do you have indicator strips?
Are you following health practices - no sick people, washing hands (using the bathroom sink at the convention hall isn't going to cut it), hats, beard nets, gloves (as appropriate)?
Are you keeping milk and other cold products cold (do you have a thermometer?); are there no expired ingredients?
Are single serve containers and spoons handled correctly?
There are day-long courses that give a certificate as a "Professional Food Manager" that provide the training in proper and safe food handling.
Jeff
-- On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 3:16 PM Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu> wrote:
I believe the cost issue was related to the quantity of food grade liquid N2 that would have to be purchased which was far more than needed.
And there's nothing wrong with using liquid nitrogen for preserving food. There's just something wrong with preparing food in a demonstration lab environment with chemistry students who are untrained in proper hygiene for commercial food preparation. It's hokey and the wrong lesson.
There are so many things that can go wrong here.
We make theatrical fog with both dry ice and liquid N2, and where you see that mist (which is being incorrectly referred to in this discussion as "fume"), the level of oxygen is quite low. We have had people lying on the stage pretending to be dead to go into seizure due to oxygen deprivation. So when they talk about good ventilation with this project, they mean GOOD VENTILATION.
-----Original Message-----
From: Margaret Rakas <mrakas**At_Symbol_Here**SMITH.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
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Sent: Wed, Sep 26, 2018 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Restaurant use of liquid nitrogen for ice cream?
Regarding "food grade" liquid nitrogen...
We called our supplier. I can't speak for anyone else's but
1) there is no extra cost for 'food grade'
2) we were informed by our supplier "The Liquid Nitrogen [we sell] for food grade is the same stuff, it just comes with a Lot # and a CoA so you know that it passed muster."
LN2 has been used for quite some time for food preservation; here is a link to a book chapter noting that it has been used in Europe since the 1960's and the book itself was published in 1991...
My personal experience/opinion, definitely not business or legal advice..
Margaret
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 11:15 AM Monona Rossol <0000030664c37427-dmarc-request**At_Symbol_Here**lists.princeton.edu> wrote:
"Its probably fine? We've never had an issue before?" Where have I heard those statements before? Why do you want to encourage students to make the same waffling statements you hear from businesses trying to justify their lousy products?
We are safety people. We should be following all of the applicable laws and safety regulations. In a previous post there was acknowledgement that only food grade liquid nitrogen was approved for this purpose, but, hey, it's expensive so they just let them make it with lab stuff.
What other food safety laws might not be being met with your equipment, training, location of service, or other issues? You should be talking to local health authorities who enforce the food safety regulations about how good and idea this is and get some kind of more official permission to make and serve ice cream.
Food doesn't belong in the lab. And lab chemicals don't belong in food. It isn't just the risk, it's the wrong lesson you are teaching.
It reminds me of the pizza party the teacher and students invited me to in a College in Arizona after I did an OSHA training. I demurred when I learned that the pizzas were made in ceramic kilns.
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Monona Rossol, M.S., M.F.A., Industrial Hygienist
President: Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety, Inc.
Safety Officer: Local USA829, IATSE
-----Original Message-----
From: Glode, Andy <andy.glode**At_Symbol_Here**UNH.EDU>
To: DCHAS-L <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU>
Sent: Wed, Sep 26, 2018 8:34 am
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Restaurant use of liquid nitrogen for ice cream?
Thanks for producing this video; this is helpful. The safety concerns raised by the recent FDA consumer advisory focus on injuries to consumers ingesting food prepared with liquid nitrogen at the point of sale. The video addresses these issues to some degree,
but I think some questions remain. The video advises us to make sure the nitrogen has fully sublimated before serving it. Are there more definitive criteria we can use to help determine whether the nitrogen has fully sublimated? Visible vapor is not necessarily
a good indicator, because that depends on moisture content of the air. Wait time prior to serving? This will depend on the volume of the food prepared and storage conditions.
At UNH, our Chemistry club students wanted to serve liquid nitrogen ice cream at a public event just days after the FDA press release. The public had just been warned to avoid consuming food prepared with liquid nitrogen, so this raises the bar for the assessment
of hazards. How do we we assure the consumer there are negligible risks, other than by saying, it's probably fine or, we've never had an issue before?
Thanks,
Andy Glode
Laboratory Safety Manager
Office of Environmental Health and Safety
University of New Hampshire
603-862-5038
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From: ACS Division of Chemical Health and Safety <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU> on behalf of Jyllian Kemsley <jyllian.kemsley**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 5:12 PM
To: DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: Re: [DCHAS-L] Restaurant use of liquid nitrogen for ice cream?
Caution - External Email
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Hi everyone,
Following up on my previous post about using liquid nitrogen to make ice cream: Here's the final video!
Thank you very much to everyone who contributed to producing this, privately and through the list.
Jyllian
Executive Editor, policy and safety
C&EN
| Chemistry news from around the world
M: (+1) 925-519-6681 | Skype: jyllian.kemsley
Twitter: **At_Symbol_Here**jkemsley
Want to be in the know? Sign up for C&EN's weekly newsletter:
cenm.ag/newsletter
--
Margaret A. Rakas, Ph.D.
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Manager, Inventory & Regulatory Affairs
Clark Science Center
413-585-3877 (p)
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Jeff Lewin
Chemical Safety Officer
Compliance, Integrity, and Safety
Environmental Health and Safety
Michigan Technological University
Houghton, MI 49931
O 906-487.3153
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