Check out Safety Emporium for your N95, N99, and face shield needs.
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 01:00:06 -0500
Reply-To: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
Sender: DCHAS-L Discussion List <DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU>
From: Andrew Gross <gross.drew**At_Symbol_Here**GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
In-Reply-To: <FF70A3D197478C4A8E079799AD76FBEC052E91C4**At_Symbol_Here**gimli.morehead-st.edu>
Really, were going to pick on me for saying HCL instead of HCl. I'm not
going to go any further acknowledging inappropriate off topic behavior.
However, I am going to continue to stand on my head over student safety.
Read the whole message, the whole entire thing. I believe my exact word wa
s
"outlandish" and how you can insert random disaster at any point.
Risk assessment is part of the learning process, true, part of that should
be proper PPE which baring certain circumstances should be gloves, glasses
and adequate clothing coverage at all times. The student is not ready to
make that decision on their own until they can truly appreciate the benefit
of PPE, ie. "thank god I wasn't wearing sandles when that flask boiled
over".
Andrew Gross
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Rita Kay Calhoun <
r.calhoun**At_Symbol_Here**moreheadstate.edu> wrote:
> So let me get this straight. You=92re saying that because the biology
> department *might* adopt a policy which is inappropriate for them, the
> chemists have to adopt a policy that is unwarranted for them! That makes
no
> sense. Hopefully the faculty are not kids and can look at each situation
> separately and make appropriate decisions. We do provide gloves for our
> students, but they don=92t wear them when there is no realistic dermal
> hazard. I agree with David that students tend to be more careless when
> gloved. This results in contamination of other bottles, benches, noteboo
ks
> and pens that they then take back to their dorms, etc. Part of the learn
ing
> process is risk assessment - with guidance, of course. In those rare
> situations where our upper-class students require more than disposable
> nitriles we provide gloves appropriate to the hazard.
>
>
>
> Kay Calhoun
>
>
>
> P.S. I can=92t help but point out that there is no such thing as 0.1N HC
L.
> There is 0.1N HCl. However, since there is element whose symbol is a lon
e
> L, HCL can=92t exist! We=92ve been doing formula writing and I=92ve been
trying
> to convince my students that it=92s ok if we work with CoCl2 , but we rea
lly
> would not want to work with COCl2!
>
>
>
> *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**list.uvm.edu] *On Behalf
> Of *Andrew Gross
> *Sent:* Friday, March 05, 2010 11:45 PM
>
> *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
>
>
>
> I'm really sorry if I come across a little harsh here, and oddly generall
y
> the opposite stance I take; but WERE TALKING ABOUT STUDENTS....KIDS!!! L
et
> me ask you this, first its OK to handle 0.1N HCL fine no real dermal haza
rd
> with a quick rinse, but now the bio department adopts your successful
> policy. Now the kid gets something on his hand that doesn't sting a
> bit...but what he really took home was a little ecoli they were working
> with, which, although harmless, mutates...like ecoli likes to do and
> boom...you got yourself an outbreat. OK, a little outlandish....but inse
rt
> disaster at any point...it could happen and chances are something bad wil
l
> happen, what is more likely is little suzy's parents suing you for the
> little red mark left by the acid and you can use your newly saved money t
o
> settle with them. You can warn them about the hazards of working no
> glove...but this is America and they will win.
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, David C. Finster
> wrote:
>
> We make gloves available, but I personally encourage students to wear the
m
> only in situations where they are warranted. In my judgment, in many lab
s
> the chemicals in use provide no significant skin hazard, especially when
a
> quick rinse with readily-available tap water is possible even in instance
s
> where perhaps some dermal hazard might exist (for extended exposure.) Th
e
> skin is a pretty good barrier, but there are surely chemicals that can
> destroy and/or penetrate skin. For some dermal hazards, the gloves that
> might =93be routinely available=94 in lab may not provide protection, eit
her, so
> unlike splash goggles that provide virtually all-encompassing eye
> protection, =93gloves=94 might not protect the skin depending upon the ch
emical
> and the glove. Wearing the wrong glove may be worse than wearing no
> glove. And, this email thread is about =93student labs=94 where many of
the
> most dangerous dermal hazards would be avoided in the first place. (HF i
n
> general chemistry? I think not!)
>
>
>
> Also, unlike goggles, gloves are disposable, which incurs the cost that
> prompted this email thread. I don=92t =93discourage=94 glove use, but (I
think
> that) some students use them more routinely than others, and perhaps more
> than necessary (perhaps related to bouts of chemophobia that may not be
> warranted). Some students realize that gloves become uncomfortable to w
ear
> after awhile. Safety overrides comfort (as with some goggles, for some
> students), to be sure, but when there is no need for gloves why endure
> discomfort? Gloves may or may not hinder manipulations; in principle th
ey
> shouldn=92t, but inexperienced users don=92t make what others might consi
der
> =93good judgment=94 in many situations.
>
>
>
> Finally, I recall reading (about 40 years ago) some human behavior study
> that indicated that some drivers drove faster when wearing seat belts (wh
en
> these were new devices in cars) since they =93felt safer=94 wearing the s
eat
> belt and therefore =93felt safer to drive faster.=94 (This was hardly th
e
> intended effect of wearing seat belts, and I=92d guess not a universal
> response for all personality types.) But, I wonder, if some students won
=92t
> feel somewhat less need to be careful about spilling solutions or solvent
s
> when they are wearing protective gloves? Just speculation; no data, not
> even pseudo-data like an anecdote!
>
>
>
> It could be argued that it is prudent to wear gloves all of the time (jus
t
> as we mandate splash goggles all of the time) but for me, the arguments
> above about cost, comfort, lack of need in many lab situations, and the
> possibility of using the wrong glove material all argue for a more temper
ed,
> occasional use of gloves. Of course, one idiosyncratic allergic reactio
n
> by one student out of a thousand can lead to universal CYA-motivated use
> that, in my judgment, could end up doing more damage than good over the l
ong
> haul for the other 999+ that follow. Alas.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> P.S. Here is a list of resources that may be helpful regarding glove
> selection:
>
>
>
> http://www.allsafetyproducts.biz/site/323655/page/74172
>
> This chart is sorted by categories of chemicals. Gloves types are
> indicated; no thickness information.
>
> http://safety.nmsu.edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE-resistance_guide.h
tm
>
> This chart has an alphabetical list of chemicals. Gloves types are
> indicated; no thickness information.
>
> http://safety.nmsu.edu/programs/chem_safety/hazcom_PPE_glove_guide.htm
>
> General categories and characteristics of glove materials.
>
> http://www.bestglove.com/site/chemrest/default.aspx
>
> Allows users to search by either specific chemical or specific gloves.
> Extensive information provided.
>
> http://www.des.umd.edu/ls/gloves.html
>
> Alphabetical listing of chemicals. Several glove materials listed, with
> thickness indicated.
>
> http://www.saftgard.com/anonymous/SolvaGard1.pdf
>
> Information on nitrile gloves for many chemicals.
>
> http://www.mapaglove.com/ChemicalSearch.cfm?id=1
>
> Searchable database.
>
>
> http://www.northsafety.com/ClientFormsImages/NorthSafety/CorpSite/E8D15F2
E-1F59-454F-B8F0-147FA2B9D81D.pdf
>
> PDF file with many gloves and chemical listed.
>
>
> http://www.ansellpro.com/download/Ansell_8thEditionChemicalResistanceGuid
e.pdf
>
> http://www.ansellpro.com/specware/
>
> This chart has an alphabetical list of chemicals. Gloves types are
> indicated; relatively thick gloves tested.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David C. Finster
> Professor of Chemistry
> University Chemical Hygiene Officer
> Department of Chemistry
> Wittenberg University
> dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**wittenberg.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf
> Of *Debbie M. Decker
> *Sent:* Friday, March 05, 2010 6:53 PM
>
>
> *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
>
>
>
> We provide them in our undergraduate chemistry/biochemistry labs, amid so
me
> gnashing of teeth over the cost! We do require students to purchase thei
r
> own safety goggles. I don=92t know what other undergraduate lab classes
> provide - biology, geology, etc.
>
>
>
> Debbie
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Debbie M. Decker, Campus Chemical Safety Officer
> Environmental Health and Safety
> University of California, Davis
> 1 Shields Ave.
> Davis, CA 95616
> (530)754-7964/(530)752-4527 (FAX)
> dmdecker**At_Symbol_Here**ucdavis.edu
> Co-Conspirator to Make the World A
> Better Place -- Visit www.HeroicStories.comand join the conspiracy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] *On Behalf
> Of *Kennedy, Sheila
> *Sent:* Friday, March 05, 2010 3:32 PM
> *To:* DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU
> *Subject:* [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
>
>
>
> As the staff of the Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Labs, we have been
> asked to propose ideas for saving money, as budgets are only getting tigh
ter
> over the next few years. One idea proposed is that we stop providing glov
es
> ad lib. to students, but have them buy & bring their own. We currently
> supply either nitrile or PVC examination (thin, single-use) gloves in our
> labs.
>
> Do you provide/require gloves for student labs?
>
>
>
> *Sheila *
>
> --
> Sheila M. Kennedy, CHO
> Safety Coordinator
> Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Laboratories
> University of California, San Diego
> (858) 534-0221
>
>
>
>
>
Really, were going to pick on me for saying HCL instead of HCl.=A0 I'm
not going to go any further acknowledging inappropriate off topic behavior.
However, I am going to continue to stand on my head over student s
afety.=A0 Read the whole message, the whole entire thing.=A0 I believe my e
xact word was "outlandish" and how you can insert random disaster
at any point.
Risk assessment is part of the learning process, true, part of that sho
uld be proper PPE which baring certain circumstances should be gloves, glas
ses and adequate clothing coverage at all times.=A0 The student is not read
y to make that decision on their own until they can truly appreciate the be
nefit of PPE, ie. "thank god I wasn't wearing sandles when that fl
ask boiled over".=A0
Andrew Gross
On Sat,
Mar 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Rita Kay Calhoun
<r.calhoun**At_Symbol_Here**moreheadstate.edu> wrote:
So let me get this straight.=A0 You=92re saying that
because the biology department might adopt a policy which is
inappropriate for them, the chemists have to adopt a policy that is unwarra
nted
for them!=A0 That makes no sense.=A0 Hopefully the faculty are not kids
and can look at each situation separately and make appropriate decisions.
=A0
=A0We do provide gloves for our students, but they don=92t wear them
when there is no realistic dermal hazard.=A0 I agree with David that
students tend to be more careless when gloved.=A0 This results in contamina
tion
of other bottles, benches, notebooks and pens that they then take back to t
heir
dorms, etc.=A0 Part of the learning process is risk assessment - with gui
dance,
of course.=A0 In those rare situations where our upper-class students
require more than disposable nitriles we provide gloves appropriate to the
hazard.
=A0
Kay Calhoun
=A0
P.S.=A0 I can=92t help but point out that there is no
such thing as 0.1N HCL.=A0 There is 0.1N HCl.=A0 However, since there is
element whose symbol is a lone L, HCL can=92t exist!=A0 We=92ve been
doing formula writing and I=92ve been trying to convince my students that i
t=92s
ok if we work with CoCl2 , but we really would not want to work
with
COCl2!
=A0
=A0
I'm really sorry
if I come
across a little harsh here, and oddly generally the opposite stance I take;
but
WERE TALKING ABOUT STUDENTS....KIDS!!!=A0 Let me ask you this, first its OK
to handle 0.1N HCL fine no real dermal hazard with a quick rinse, but now t
he
bio department adopts your successful policy.=A0 Now the kid gets something
on his hand that doesn't sting a bit...but what he really took home was
a
little ecoli they were working with, which, although harmless, mutates...li
ke
ecoli likes to do and boom...you got yourself an outbreat.=A0 OK, a little
outlandish....but insert disaster at any point...it could happen and chance
s
are something bad will happen, what is more likely is little suzy's par
ents
suing you for the little red mark left by the acid and you can use your new
ly
saved money to settle with them.=A0 You can warn them about the hazards of
working no glove...but this is America and they will win.
-Andrew
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 8:57 PM, David C. Finster <
;dfinster**At_Symbol_Here**witt
enberg.edu> wrote:
We make glo
ves available, but I personally encourage
students to wear them only in situations where they are warranted.=A0 In my
judgment, in many labs the chemicals in use provide no significant skin haz
ard,
especially when a quick rinse with readily-available tap water is possible
even
in instances where perhaps some dermal hazard might exist (for extended
exposure.)=A0 The skin is a pretty good barrier, but there are surely
chemicals that can destroy and/or penetrate skin.=A0 For some dermal
hazards, the gloves that might =93be routinely available=94 in lab may
not provide protection, either, so unlike splash goggles that provide virtu
ally
all-encompassing eye protection, =93gloves=94 might not protect the
skin depending upon the chemical and the glove.=A0 =A0=A0Wearing the
wrong glove may be worse than wearing no glove.=A0 And, this email thread i
s
about =93student labs=94=A0 where many of the most dangerous dermal
hazards would be avoided in the first place.=A0 (HF in general
chemistry?=A0 I think not!)
=A0<
/p>
Also, unlik
e goggles, gloves are disposable, which incurs
the cost that prompted this email thread.=A0 I don=92t
=93discourage=94 glove use, but (I think that) some students use them
more routinely than others, and perhaps more than necessary (perhaps relate
d to
bouts of chemophobia that may not be warranted).=A0 Some students realize
that gloves =A0become uncomfortable to wear after awhile.=A0 Safety
overrides comfort (as with some goggles, for some students), to be sure, bu
t
when there is no need for gloves why endure discomfort? =A0=A0Gloves may
or may not hinder manipulations; in principle they shouldn=92t, but
inexperienced users don=92t make what others might consider =93good
judgment=94 in many situations.=A0
=A0<
/p>
Finally, I
recall reading (about 40 years ago) some human
behavior study that indicated that some drivers drove faster when wearing s
eat
belts (when these were new devices in cars) since they =93felt safer=94
wearing the seat belt and therefore =93felt safer to drive
faster.=94=A0 (This was hardly the intended effect of wearing seat
belts, and I=92d guess not a universal response for all personality
types.)=A0 But, I wonder, if some students won=92t=A0 feel somewhat
less need to be careful about spilling solutions or solvents when they are
wearing protective gloves?=A0 Just speculation; no data, not even
pseudo-data like an anecdote!
=A0<
/p>
It could be
argued that it is prudent to wear gloves all
of the time (just as we mandate splash goggles all of the time) but for me,
the
arguments above about cost, comfort, lack of need in many lab situations, a
nd
the possibility of using the wrong glove material all argue for a more
tempered, occasional use of gloves.=A0 =A0Of course, one idiosyncratic
allergic reaction by one student out of a thousand can lead to universal
CYA-motivated use that, in my judgment, could end up doing more damage than
good over the long haul for the other 999+ that follow.=A0 Alas.
=A0<
/p>
Dave
=A0<
/p>
P.S.=A0 Her
e is a list of resources that may be
helpful regarding glove selection:
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
From:
DCHAS-L Discussion List [mailto:DCHAS-L**At_Symbol_Here**LIST.UVM.EDU] On Behalf Of Debbie M. Deck
er
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:53 PM
Subject:<
/b> Re: [DCHAS-L] GLOVES IN STUDENT LABS
=A0
We provide
them in our undergraduate
chemistry/biochemistry labs, amid some gnashing of teeth over the cost!=A0
We do require students to purchase their own safety goggles.=A0 I
don=92t know what other undergraduate lab classes provide - biology,
geology, etc.
=A0<
/p>
Debbie
-----------
------------------
Debbie M. Decker, Campus Chemical Safety
Officer
Environmental Health and Safety
University of California, Davis
1 Shields Ave.
Davis, CA=A0 95616
(530)754-7964/(530)752-4527 (FAX)
dmdecker**At_Symbol_Here**ucdavis.
edu
Co-Conspirator to Make the World A
Better Place -- Visit www.HeroicStories.com
and join the conspiracy
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
=A0<
/p>
=A0
As
the staff of the Chemistry & Biochemistry Teachin
g Labs, we have been asked
to propose ideas for saving money, as budgets are only getting tighter over
the
next few years. One idea proposed is that we stop providing gloves ad lib.
to
students, but have them buy & bring their own. We currently supply eith
er
nitrile or PVC examination (thin, single-use) gloves in our labs.
Do you
provide/require gloves for student labs?
=A0
Sheila
--
Sheila M. Kennedy, CHO
Safety Coordinator
Chemistry & Biochemistry Teaching Laboratories
University of California, San Diego
(858) 534-0221
=A0
=A0
--000e0ce0480c0bf31e04812fa916--
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